Pakistan (Terrorism)
Brooks Newmark takes part in a debate on terrorism emanating from Pakistan and highlights the need for stability in that country.
Mr. Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): If I may, I return to an earlier point about madrassas. General Musharraf said that he wants to bring about reform. I was in Pakistan last year, and I saw evidence of that. However, the reality is very different. The International Crisis Group said that the reform of the 13,000 madrassas-the number that my hon. Friend mentioned-is now a shambles. Notwithstanding the excellent point made on education, reforming madrassas will not cost money. However, it needs the will to do so, and that will needs to be enforced. That is where the weakness lies.
Mr. Ellwood: My hon. Friend makes an important point. I know that he takes a huge interest in the country and has spent a lot of time there. Where the money is going, and if it is going into education, how it is being spent, linking in the work of the madrassas, is critical. But at the end of the day, the Government's footprint of influence is limited, because of the mountainous region, which is very difficult to access, and because they have less influence from an authoritative perspective. It is very difficult for them to have an educational influence, let alone to get policemen up there.
Mr. Newmark: On money and education, I believe that the UK Government have committed some £236 million, over the current three-year period, and £480 million, over the 2008-11 period, to Pakistan. Will the Minister give us an assurance that none of that money will be channelled into institutions or madrassas fostering terrorism?
Mr. Ellwood: I know that the Minister was listening to those comments, and I look forward to his response. It is important that we know how funds going from the UK to Pakistan are spent and that we do not simply hand over a cheque.
The Minister for the Middle East (Dr. Kim Howells): I thank the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Braintree (Mr. Newmark). I can provide the assurance that they seek. On my visits to Pakistan, I ensure that I get out to those madrassas and to areas where the Department for International Development is working. There is no question but that it is a difficult situation. As a Minister, I could not begin to contemplate the idea that any money channelled via DFID, or any other Department, was helping to ferment terrorism.
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Mr. Newmark: My hon. Friend looks impatient, but we have one and a half hours, so we have time for interventions. Some individuals and politicians in the United States agree that, notwithstanding what is happening in Pakistan, stability is extremely important. To take a case in point, last December, during a hearing before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, a US Assistant Secretary of State reaffirmed the US Government's unambiguous commitment to maintaining economic and security assistance to Pakistan in spite of the recent turmoil, because Pakistan remains a lynchpin in combating terrorism and extremism. Is my hon. Friend convinced that the Government's policy on terrorism emanating from within Pakistan is sufficient to send a similarly robust message on our continuing commitment to a stable Pakistan?
Mr. Ellwood: I shall venture into that subject later, if my hon. Friend will be patient. There is a general concern, because the training camps remain and attacks continue-even in the UK we have had the attack in Glasgow airport last June, as well as the thwarted attacks in London. They were very real and are still happening, so we need to work harder to ensure that we combat this problem. The current strategy is not working. Owing to the remote nature of the bases, President Musharraf cannot contain the problem, which is why support from the United States, Great Britain and the west in general is critical.
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Mr. Newmark: Another study, undertaken in the Armed Forces Journal in June 2007, which, as an ex-Army man, I am sure that my hon. Friend is a subscriber to, suggested that the security services were monitoring
"more than 20 plots, involving as many as 200 terrorist cells, and watching more than 1,500 people associated with them in the United Kingdom, most of whom-
unfortunately-
are of Pakistani origin."
I say "unfortunately", because most Pakistanis who live here are good citizens who behave. It is a small group of people, but nevertheless, they were of Pakistani origin, and it would be interesting to know, perhaps from the Minister, whether it is a realistic assessment, or whether the matter is better or worse. They are, none the less, serious numbers with which we should all be concerned.
Mr. Ellwood: The answer is that I do not know. However, they are worrying numbers, which the Minister must digest, and then, I hope, produce a strategy that allows us to better understand what is going in mosques in the UK. We must dare to challenge fundamentalism on our doorstep. It is not a random challenge purely against Islam-far from it; it is a recognition that extremist behaviour cannot go unchecked. There is a need for a better understanding of what is happening in the 1,350 mosques in the UK, and from the reports that my hon. Friend has read out, and from the study that took place, I do not believe that we do fully understand.
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Mr. Newmark: I shall try to be brief, thank you, Mr. Cummings.
Before my hon. Friend moves on to Pakistan, I am sure that he will agree that the punishment must fit the crime. He will agree that the recent conviction of Sohal Qureshi for terrorist offences is a step in the right direction, but does he not agree that, unfortunately, Qureshi's sentence of just four-and-a-half years, minus time served, hardly sends a strong signal that the Government are committed to severing the acknowledged link between terrorism in Pakistan and the UK?
Mr. Ellwood: Again, my hon. Friend makes a valid point. It is a very difficult line to draw. How far must the punishment go before it is seen to incite more violence and upset more communities? It is a sensitive issue, and I should acknowledge that the Government have taken initiatives. The Muslim Council of Great Britain was an initiative by the previous Prime Minister to try to link thoughts and views and provide a forum for Muslim expression and concerns. One challenge for the Muslim community is that it is so disparate. There are so many facets to the Muslim community, with people either coming from different geographical locations or following different parts or interpretations of the Koran, which is why the issue is difficult. There is no unified leader, no Papal figure, whom one can turn to in order to condemn or condone actions. It is difficult to find a unifying voice, and it is therefore even easier for the corrupt message to get through and go unchallenged.
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Mr. Newmark: We may have a full generation-thirty years-of Bushes and Clintons running the United States, so dynastic contributions to political life do not exist just in Pakistan.
Dr. Howells: I could not possibly comment on that.
